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	<title>Comments on: Thrown a curve</title>
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	<link>http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/thrown-a-curve/</link>
	<description>an "insect psychologist" contemplates human behaviour</description>
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		<title>By: proteus123</title>
		<link>http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/thrown-a-curve/#comment-19630</link>
		<dc:creator>proteus123</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/?p=375#comment-19630</guid>
		<description>The underlying problem is that while a normal distribution curve may generally fit the grades that large samples of students get, the curve will always look slightly different, assignment to assignment, class to class.  A curve is meant to DISPLAY data that is already collected, not be a static line to place students&#039; grades on.  I would call this preemptive statistics.

It is perfectly feasable to have an assignment that a majority of students perform well on, placing the peak of the curve in say the upper B and A range, and also feasable to have an assignment that perhaps doesn&#039;t relate much to the curriculum, where you would expect a pretty even distribution across the grade range (a better display of this distribution might be a bar graph or even a scatter plot).

Doing this sort of grade mapping is a great way to guage how well a set of students are doing and can be indicators of how well the teacher is teaching and whether the curriculum is too hard/easy, but as has already been said time and time again, we want students to BREAK the normal distribution curve.  We should let them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The underlying problem is that while a normal distribution curve may generally fit the grades that large samples of students get, the curve will always look slightly different, assignment to assignment, class to class.  A curve is meant to DISPLAY data that is already collected, not be a static line to place students&#8217; grades on.  I would call this preemptive statistics.</p>
<p>It is perfectly feasable to have an assignment that a majority of students perform well on, placing the peak of the curve in say the upper B and A range, and also feasable to have an assignment that perhaps doesn&#8217;t relate much to the curriculum, where you would expect a pretty even distribution across the grade range (a better display of this distribution might be a bar graph or even a scatter plot).</p>
<p>Doing this sort of grade mapping is a great way to guage how well a set of students are doing and can be indicators of how well the teacher is teaching and whether the curriculum is too hard/easy, but as has already been said time and time again, we want students to BREAK the normal distribution curve.  We should let them.</p>
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		<title>By: qw88nb88</title>
		<link>http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/thrown-a-curve/#comment-19560</link>
		<dc:creator>qw88nb88</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/?p=375#comment-19560</guid>
		<description>Tracy, 

I think very few teachers want to fail students, although the concept of so-called &quot;flunk out classes&quot; would fit the bill.  (If colleges are really concerned about students having the necessary expertise, it would be quicker, cheaper, and a better use of everyone&#039;s time and energy to require placement exams prior to enrolling in particular classes.)

The situation you&#039;re describing is two different things.  One is simply doing well on a mastery exam, and we all want the students to have good understanding of the material.  The other thing is, as you pointed out, recognising exceptional achievement. 

A letter grading system determined by cumulative quantitative scores simply does not have the built-in means of expressing the differences between someone who does well through technical mastery, and someone who does well because of their insight and ability to apply critical thinking.

What &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; sort out the difference between those is the type of assessments an instructor uses, which for higher scores would require that a student demonstrated work at higher taxonomic levels.  

Sorry if that sounds a little circular, but it&#039;s up to the instructor to decide what kinds of things are important in the student learning objectives, and how those are reflected in the assessment and grading system.  Good instructors make this process transparent at the beginning of the semester, and encourage students to increase the depth of their learning.

andrea</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tracy, </p>
<p>I think very few teachers want to fail students, although the concept of so-called &#8220;flunk out classes&#8221; would fit the bill.  (If colleges are really concerned about students having the necessary expertise, it would be quicker, cheaper, and a better use of everyone&#8217;s time and energy to require placement exams prior to enrolling in particular classes.)</p>
<p>The situation you&#8217;re describing is two different things.  One is simply doing well on a mastery exam, and we all want the students to have good understanding of the material.  The other thing is, as you pointed out, recognising exceptional achievement. </p>
<p>A letter grading system determined by cumulative quantitative scores simply does not have the built-in means of expressing the differences between someone who does well through technical mastery, and someone who does well because of their insight and ability to apply critical thinking.</p>
<p>What <i>can</i> sort out the difference between those is the type of assessments an instructor uses, which for higher scores would require that a student demonstrated work at higher taxonomic levels.  </p>
<p>Sorry if that sounds a little circular, but it&#8217;s up to the instructor to decide what kinds of things are important in the student learning objectives, and how those are reflected in the assessment and grading system.  Good instructors make this process transparent at the beginning of the semester, and encourage students to increase the depth of their learning.</p>
<p>andrea</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/thrown-a-curve/#comment-19559</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/?p=375#comment-19559</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Because of the pedagogical bias or expectation that grades “should” fall into that fabulous normal distribution curve, when we get lots of students getting B’s and A’s (and hardly, if any, getting D’s and F’s), then people start fretting that something is terribly wrong.&lt;/i&gt;

Is this feeling due to a desire to fail students, or is it due to a desire that the really good results should be recognised? In any normal class there is a variation in ability. If lots of students are getting A&#039;s, then there&#039;s no particular recognition of the truly great work, unless you have some other way of recognising it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Because of the pedagogical bias or expectation that grades “should” fall into that fabulous normal distribution curve, when we get lots of students getting B’s and A’s (and hardly, if any, getting D’s and F’s), then people start fretting that something is terribly wrong.</i></p>
<p>Is this feeling due to a desire to fail students, or is it due to a desire that the really good results should be recognised? In any normal class there is a variation in ability. If lots of students are getting A&#8217;s, then there&#8217;s no particular recognition of the truly great work, unless you have some other way of recognising it.</p>
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		<title>By: rightwingprof</title>
		<link>http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/thrown-a-curve/#comment-19545</link>
		<dc:creator>rightwingprof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/?p=375#comment-19545</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t grade on a curve, but a strict percentile system, with no rounding. Having said that, with anywhere from 900 - 1200 students, grades distribute normally, as they will when you have a large enough sample space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t grade on a curve, but a strict percentile system, with no rounding. Having said that, with anywhere from 900 &#8211; 1200 students, grades distribute normally, as they will when you have a large enough sample space.</p>
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		<title>By: qw88nb88</title>
		<link>http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/thrown-a-curve/#comment-19544</link>
		<dc:creator>qw88nb88</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 12:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/?p=375#comment-19544</guid>
		<description>See &lt;a href=&quot;http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/one-in-the-crowd/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this post &lt;/a&gt;about the Kathleen Seidel story.
andrea</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See <a href="http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/one-in-the-crowd/" rel="nofollow">this post </a>about the Kathleen Seidel story.<br />
andrea</p>
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		<title>By: The 166th Carnival of Education &#171; The Elementary Educator</title>
		<link>http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/thrown-a-curve/#comment-19533</link>
		<dc:creator>The 166th Carnival of Education &#171; The Elementary Educator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 01:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/?p=375#comment-19533</guid>
		<description>[...] Also 2:  Students who did well in a chemistry class that Andrea uses to criticize the notion of grading on a curve [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Also 2:  Students who did well in a chemistry class that Andrea uses to criticize the notion of grading on a curve [...]</p>
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		<title>By: athenivandx</title>
		<link>http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/thrown-a-curve/#comment-19528</link>
		<dc:creator>athenivandx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 19:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qw88nb88.wordpress.com/?p=375#comment-19528</guid>
		<description>okay, this is TOTALLY unrelated to the content of your post, but Kathleen Seidel, an autism rights blogger, is facing a subpoena of alot of her correspondence with other bloggers as well as more private information, because she spoke out against something or other that I cannot remember right now, but Orac of Respectful Insolence has written an open letter to David Kirby and Dan Olmstead, two prominent journalists, urging them to speak out against the subpoena. I have linked to the open letter in my lastest blog entry, and I am urging everyone reading it to link to it and help spread it around the net. The more it spreads, the better are the chances of it being picked up by someone or people with power on the right side of autism rights, and coming out in defence of Ms. Seidel

thanks

The Integral of athenivanidx, in defence of Kathleen Seidel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>okay, this is TOTALLY unrelated to the content of your post, but Kathleen Seidel, an autism rights blogger, is facing a subpoena of alot of her correspondence with other bloggers as well as more private information, because she spoke out against something or other that I cannot remember right now, but Orac of Respectful Insolence has written an open letter to David Kirby and Dan Olmstead, two prominent journalists, urging them to speak out against the subpoena. I have linked to the open letter in my lastest blog entry, and I am urging everyone reading it to link to it and help spread it around the net. The more it spreads, the better are the chances of it being picked up by someone or people with power on the right side of autism rights, and coming out in defence of Ms. Seidel</p>
<p>thanks</p>
<p>The Integral of athenivanidx, in defence of Kathleen Seidel</p>
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